The Day of Thunder

[Hisomu Reo]

I know it's a bit early, but I figure that as we are building to the peak some people might want to share/get feedback on goal ideas. Obviously, there is time to go and things can change a lot in terms of priority, feasability and interest. Still, i think it might be worthwhile to workshop ideas, especially if there is interest in communal goals.

Off the top of my head, I've been tinkering with an Advanced School and would appreciate feedback

Has been gutted, see later for newest version

[Wu Zhe]

Well hello there! I am no expert on L5R but this advanced school seems far too powerful. I apologise if I come out wrong.

The +2k2 on void is powerful but limited to a selection of skill might balance it. The inclusion of Iaijutsu does indicate that in a duel you'll get a consistant +2k2 on all three rolls which already makes it a great school for duelists.

the second bug me at the

or a contested Etiquette/Awareness check for a PC. Is successful, gain that character (or another appropriate member of their group) as an Ally with 1 pt devotion. Additional raises may be called for additional points of devotion.

I am not a fan of mechanics dictates pc actions

The first part of the last rank is also incredibly powerful but the 10k10 appears to me like an 'I win' button. Take a rank of luck and you are guaranteed victory. Using that with the rank two ability allows for the creation of incredible allies. The only 10k10 substitution that I know of is a mantis advanced school and it's only for navigation which is a far, far more niche skill then the combinaison of Iaijutsu, courtier, awareness and etiquette.

[Hisomu Reo]

Well hello there! I am no expert on L5R but this advanced school seems far too powerful. I apologise if I come out wrong.

The +2k2 on void is powerful but limited to a selection of skill might balance it. The inclusion of Iaijutsu does indicate that in a duel you'll get a consistant +2k2 on all three rolls which already makes it a great school for duelists.

the second bug me at the

or a contested Etiquette/Awareness check for a PC. Is successful, gain that character (or another appropriate member of their group) as an Ally with 1 pt devotion. Additional raises may be called for additional points of devotion.

I am not a fan of mechanics dictates pc actions

The first part of the last rank is also incredibly powerful but the 10k10 appears to me like an 'I win' button. Take a rank of luck and you are guaranteed victory. Using that with the rank two ability allows for the creation of incredible allies. The only 10k10 substitution that I know of is a mantis advanced school and it's only for navigation which is a far, far more niche skill then the combinaison of Iaijutsu, courtier, awareness and etiquette.

No problem, that's why I brought it up! I am not sure as to how to balance it right either.

In response to the last point, it's actually a nerfed version of the Mantis (which is heavily what I drew from in my work), which applies to all Bugei rolls.

Rank 3: Master of the Seas
A true captain of the Mantis Clan excels in all areas pertaining to his duties. You may spend a Void Point on any Merchant Skill Roll (excluding Craft Skills) to replace the normal amount you would roll with 10k10. You may also add a bonus of +3k0 to all Bugei Skill Rolls made while onboard a water-borne vessel.

But I agree that it's a bit too much. Maybe knocking that to a 4k1.

I can definitely work #2 into making it an NPC in that person's Clan. That avoids messiness

Will move the iaijutsu just to Void

[Yoshitsune Ayako]

Not a GM, so all this is just my opinion, take it with lots of salt.

If you compare to the Advanced Schools in the basic rulebook, all the rulebook Advanced Schools have Ring and Skill requirements around 4 to 5, and have techniques that are somewhat more limited.

For example, the book Kenshinzen, described as "the epitome of the Iaijutsu master" has entry requirements of Fire 4, Void 4, Iaijutsu 5, Lore: Bushido 4, Meditation 5 (along with defeating one of them). Its rank 1 technique is "You get +10 TN while in Center Stance", rank 2 technique is "Iaijutsu explodes on 9s in Assessment and Focus", rank 3 is a skirmish technique that lets you stun people if you only attack once.

The proposed school's techniques would give a +4k1 bonus to all Iaijutsu rolls (which can be replaced by 10k10 when needed); this seems like it would overshadow the Kenshinzen as duelists. You'd get +4k1 on Courtier, Etiquette and Sincerity, which would end up overshadowing dedicated Courtiers.

Personally I like playing duelist/courtiers so I like this style of school, but IMHO the proposed bonuses are too much.

[Hisomu Reo]

Not a GM, so all this is just my opinion, take it with lots of salt.

If you compare to the Advanced Schools in the basic rulebook, all the rulebook Advanced Schools have Ring and Skill requirements around 4 to 5, and have techniques that are somewhat more limited.

For example, the book Kenshinzen, described as "the epitome of the Iaijutsu master" has entry requirements of Fire 4, Void 4, Iaijutsu 5, Lore: Bushido 4, Meditation 5 (along with defeating one of them). Its rank 1 technique is "You get +10 TN while in Center Stance", rank 2 technique is "Iaijutsu explodes on 9s in Assessment and Focus", rank 3 is a skirmish technique that lets you stun people if you only attack once.

The proposed school's techniques would give a +4k1 bonus to all Iaijutsu rolls (which can be replaced by 10k10 when needed); this seems like it would overshadow the Kenshinzen as duelists. You'd get +4k1 on Courtier, Etiquette and Sincerity, which would end up overshadowing dedicated Courtiers.

Personally I like playing duelist/courtiers so I like this style of school, but IMHO the proposed bonuses are too much.

That's fair. I wanted something to be a courtier for a very martial north that would be easy to get into from a variety of possible schools, and come in as a bulky courtier or a bushi who takes on more. But I do think I can make bonuses more general and less potent.

[Hisomu Reo]

I'm taking off Rank 3 for now since that seems to be the most contested. I am taking suggestions for what people think is appropriate.

Right now, I'm envisioning Susumu marrying into the Bat (neither or whom have a dedicated Courtier school) and he wants to make something that drafts those with some social skill into a corp and acts as the duelists (as that is how the legal system is run)

[Wu Zhe]

In response to the last point, it's actually a nerfed version of the Mantis (which is heavily what I drew from in my work), which applies to all Bugei rolls.

Rank 3: Master of the Seas
A true captain of the Mantis Clan excels in all areas pertaining to his duties. You may spend a Void Point on any Merchant Skill Roll (excluding Craft Skills) to replace the normal amount you would roll with 10k10. You may also add a bonus of +3k0 to all Bugei Skill Rolls made while onboard a water-borne vessel.

Ah, yes. Still it leaves us with four skills: animal handling, commerce, sailing and engineering. Which are still more niche skills then the courtly 4. For the +3k0 the mantis gets it...while on board a water borne vessel...which is situational to the extreme.

Courts and social contests are far, far more common then naval fights in most games.

But let's begin with the beginning: what is the theme of the school? The first rank hints at bushis be able to count as courtier...is that the inspiration?

[Hisomu Reo]

Ah, yes. Still it leaves us with four skills: animal handling, commerce, sailing and engineering. Which are still more niche skills then the courtly 4. For the +3k0 the mantis gets it...while on board a water borne vessel...which is situational to the extreme.

Courts and social contests are far, far more common then naval fights in most games.

But let's begin with the beginning: what is the theme of the school? The first rank hints at bushis be able to count as courtier...is that the inspiration?

At this point, I've gotten rid of Rank 3, as there seems to be a consensus that it was OP.

Essentially the inspiration is that (if things go as planned) Susumu is going to leave the Spider to marry into the Bat. Neither of them have a courtier group of their own, and he sees them at a disadvantage in politicking. He wants to make a group to settle disputes between the northern clans, which have at least some cross talk with each other, but would need an Arbiter to help to resolve disputes. With disputes now solved by dueling under the law (thus the Lore (Law) 3) the Arbiter is supposed to asses the situation, make their best judgement and stand behind them as its champion.

As the Bat and Spider are two of the more spiritual clans, it made sense to make things run through Void, which tend to be powerful but short bursts.

An Arbiter should not be a tournament champion, but they might have a punters chance against one in a single match if what they believe is on the line.

Does that offer a clearer vision of what i was going for?

[Yoshitsune Ayako]

Suggestion (feel free to steal or discard, whichever you like):

Rank 1:Sound Words and Cold Steel Ring True
The Susumu Arbiter enforces the law through the art of the duel. If you have received credible testimony that someone of samurai rank is suspected of a crime, gain +2k0 to Courtier rolls to manipulate the suspect into a judicial duel; a suspect who refuses such a duel loses honor as if an accomplice to that crime. Gain +1k0 to Iaijutsu rolls when participating in a judicial duel.

[Yoshitsune Ayako]

Essentially the inspiration is that (if things go as planned) Susumu is going to leave the Spider to marry into the Bat. Neither of them have a courtier group of their own, and he sees them at a disadvantage in politicking. He wants to make a group to settle disputes between the northern clans, which have at least some cross talk with each other, but would need an Arbiter to help to resolve disputes. With disputes now solved by dueling under the law (thus the Lore (Law) 3) the Arbiter is supposed to asses the situation, make their best judgement and stand behind them as its champion.

As the Bat and Spider are two of the more spiritual clans, it made sense to make things run through Void, which tend to be powerful but short bursts.

An Arbiter should not be a tournament champion, but they might have a punters chance against one in a single match if what they believe is on the line.

Does that offer a clearer vision of what i was going for?

This sounds like you want to make a Magistrate school! Maybe look at Soshi Magistrate or similar for inspiration.

[Hisomu Reo]

This sounds like you want to make a Magistrate school! Maybe look at Soshi Magistrate or similar for inspiration.

Kind of? Also some bridge build and ally making, but it started that way, but now everything about the legal code is duels so it's hard to extricate them from anything. What good does it do if a magistrate finds investigative proof but guilt or innocence is still decided by duels? So yeah, getting good would be part of it.

EDIT: That in particular rankled Susumu in Dawn 3, but he never got to do anything about it.

I do like your idea though. I think it fits well with Shinjo Magistrate and makes a good Rank 2.

[Ryoshun Yukara]

It may be worth pushing for duels to not be the only outcome then, instead of focusing on a school. The legal system is still very fresh. Adding an element of review and saving duels for matters of honor and such may be an option still. Codifying the difference between 'first blood' and 'to the death' at any rate, so people don't try and use first blood to prove death penalty crimes, for instance.

Lots of options he could pursue - I think schools are always tempting to map out a preferred playstyle, but they can be a challenge to balance and keep track of.

[Jiyo Sora]

What Yukara said.


While duels are accepted, they're not given total primacy.

[Hisomu Reo]

What Yukara said.


While duels are accepted, they're not given total primacy.

There are PC efforts to make it so though

The Crane push continually for the validity of the way of the duel to determine the favor of the heavens. The Crane cite the Imperial Tournament as the foundation of all legitimacy in the empire. Crane magistrates engage in duels against individuals within the clan suspected of corruption. Their verdicts are upheld by the Imperials and even one of the daughters of Shiba, Jiyo Kumori, is permitted to train with the renowned duelist, Kakita at his dojo. Kumori’s presence alongside constant political support from the Crane signifies a tacit acceptance from the office of the Emerald Champion to the validity of the practice of dueling, which continues to gain in popularity throughout the empire as a means of conflict resolution.

I'm not going to undo that investment.

I'm not saying that I can't invest in making the Northern method more evidence and investigation based. (I might just do that) but it seems silly to NOT make a school or path that offers a path for that and to be prepared when in places where they need to play by local rules

[Togashi Satsuki]

I think it's important to keep in mind too that the Crane have spent points over like... 3 games now or so to make dueling a thing as it is in canon-Rokugan.

[Jiyo Sora]

And Kakita dueled Hadananzi in a major beat.

Not saying it's not important. Just saying it's not the be-all end-all, since we've also had points spent pushing in other directions.

[Hisomu Reo]

I think it's important to keep in mind too that the Crane have spent points over like... 3 games now or so to make dueling a thing as it is in canon-Rokugan.

Exactly. At this point dueling as dispute resolutiom is pretty thoroughly enshrined. While Susumu could possibly push changes at a local level it seems reasonable to attempt changes within the system. Having someone investigate the situation and stand as champion of the side they believe in I think fits the character and is a unique flavor

[Hisomu Reo]

Alright. After a night to sleep on it, I decided to approach from a new angle. I didn't want a duelist that would outshine the Kenziken, I wanted a courtier whose job was a resolve disputes, mend fences and stand for what they found to be the truth. So, I went back to Kitsuki Investigator for influence. Arguably, this version is more powerful, but it's for social gains instead of trying to cheese Iaijutsu rolls.

I think this is more balanced.

Susumu Arbiter
Ever since the First Winter Court, Ryoshun Susumu (formerly Hisomu) had been troubled by what he saw as a power block of southern Clans effectively lobbying for a strong hierarchical society, enforced by a “Might make right” attitude to dispute through the use of the iaijustsu duel. This came to a head in the duel of Kakita and Hadananzi on what Susumy viewed as spurious grounds. While Kakita prevailed, Susumu worried that Imperial Justice could be literally weaponized and could be used to bully the smaller northern Clans into compliance.

Neither the Spider nor the Bat had dedicated courtier schools of their own, but each had their own separate methods of discerning the truth and standing by it. Rather than create something from whole cloth, Susumu chose to refine techniques from many of the schools he had exposure to: the dedication to truth of the Seekers, the insight of the Matsu Sentinel, the tenacity of the Kakita and self-reliance of the Ryoshun Smith. From their techniques he crafted a set of skills for his vision of a courtier, recruiting those from each of those schools that he felt had promise. Susumu has charged his Arbiters to travel the Empire (especially the north) to keep a cohesive group, resolving disputes and making alliances

Requirements

Rings/Traits: Void 3, Air 3, Perception 3
Skills: Iaijutsu 3, Lore: Law 3, Any Social Skill 3, Investigation 3
Special: Members of this school are considered both Courtier and Bushi for the purposes for Advantages, Disadvantages and effects.

Rank 1: Truth in words, truth in steel
An arbiter is tasked with determining the truth of a situation and acting accordingly. After listening to a dispute for a few minutes, the Arbiter may roll Investigation (Notice) / Perception against a TN of each target’s Intelligence x 5. A success grants you a true and accurate, if simple, picture of the validity of their arguments and motivations. For example, you might perceive a basic assertion is true but is being overblown for effect, or someone is largely telling the truth but omitting something. The Arbiter gains +1k0 on social and Iaijustu (Assessment) rolls when acting on that information.

Rank 2: From Adversary to Ally
A skilled arbiter is not just responsible for finding the truth, but to resolve disputes in a productive way that leaves those they’ve worked with in their good graces, even if they were one the opposite side of an argument…or sway an ally to change sides. After working to resolve a dispute they may roll Courtier/Awareness vs TN the targets Status, Glory or Infamy (whichever is highest) x 5 . If successful, gain that character (or another appropriate NPC peer) as an Ally with 1 pt devotion. Additional raises may be called for additional points of devotion.

Rank 3
The Arbiter knows that duty has no limits, and their adherence to it has no limit when they open themselves up to the insight of the world around them. When making an Investigation or Iaijutsu (Focus) roll, add your Void Ring to the result. In addition, when spending Void to augment one of those rolls increase the dice from +1k1 to +2k2.

Also this is meant for other people to workshop, not just me

[Akodo Kenji]

I'd give rank 1 a solid TN. Probably 20 to 25. Otherwise I feel it can be a bit low for the kind of thing it does.

Rank 2: having a free make an ally button is a bit too much for any school. I'd drop this idea completely. The school is for solving disputes and encouraging alliances on a Clan level. Or so it reads to me. This ability is more about amassing personal power.

Rank 3 seems fine but kinda unsure why the school has such a heavy emphasis on dueling. It feels like a school that would want to avoid duels and bloodshed.

[Hisomu Reo]

I'd give rank 1 a solid TN. Probably 20 to 25. Otherwise I feel it can be a bit low for the kind of thing it does.

Rank 2: having a free make an ally button is a bit too much for any school. I'd drop this idea completely. The school is for solving disputes and encouraging alliances on a Clan level. Or so it reads to me. This ability is more about amassing personal power.

Rank 3 seems fine but kinda unsure why the school has such a heavy emphasis on dueling. It feels like a school that would want to avoid duels and bloodshed.

Rank 1 was pretty much straight from Kitsune investigator, but considering that TN 10-20 is low, sure, 10+Intelligence x 5 isn't crazy

Rank 2: What about effectively letting them rolling for a temporary Well Connected advantage? That way it's not building massive power bases so much as picking up useful bits as they help out.